People, Passions & Projects #8: Neeti YLA

J = Jinal
F = Francesca
S = Saagar

J: Firstly thank you both for being part of this series! How have you been?

F: Not too bad, how have you been?

J: Good thanks, university summers can be quite long so just making sure I'm keeping busy. How about you Saagar, how's things going?

S: Very well thank you, same old with work and my side projects.

J: Are you both working from home right now?

S: I'm doing a mix of both working from home and in the office, but more in the office.

F: I'm currently enjoying my final [university] summer, I start work next month so a few weeks left of the break!

J: What's the meaning behind your name?

S: So Neeti YLA stands for Neeti Young Lawyers Association. The word Neeti is a Sanskrit word meaning 'conduct which is wise and behaviour that is proper' i.e. when you have those two things you have something that is dharmic. It can also mean the fusing together of different things, that's one thing we quite like; how you can fuse dharma (which is natural law) with positive law (which is the actual law) and how they combine. The name underpins the vision we have with this organisation quite well.

J: Just touching upon that topic, I know you talked about dharma. So is this coming from a Hindu specific point of view or a more general religious dharma?

S: So dharma is universal, it perhaps aligns itself better with some religions/religious beliefs but it is generally quite universal. The idea of a dharmic organisation is that it will bring together anyone who aligns with dharma. Stereotypically that would be your Hindus, Jains, Buddhists and Sikhs, but also anyone who identifies with dharma, there's that really beautiful overlap there.

J: So what made you want to start this initiative?

F: So our aim was to create a platform where young dharmic lawyers, both aspiring and those that are already in the field, could come together to develop and nurture. The ultimate aim of this is to increase the amount of dharmic lawyers we have in the field.

S: Both Francesca and I have that shared vision on this. Its about that level of representation. I'm in the profession and Francesca is on the student side, so it works quite well as we're tackling it from 2 different points of view. We've got a foot in either target audience.

J: So do you think that it is quite important that both dharma and law co-exist?

S: Yes, for those who are more dharmically inclined. The 2 differ though in many ways, they're not the same. For example, the dharmic principle of satya (meaning truthfulness) which is mirrored by the legal principle of being honest, can often contradict with other legal principles and duties. If a client conveys to you that they have committed a crime or a breach, you have a legal and dharmic duty of being honest and therefore there is a need to disclose this. However, there is also a legal duty of acting in your client's best interest and a concept of privilege in which that information stays between the lawyer and the client. So whilst you may wish to uphold satya and honesty, other principles can override this. But in todays society it is important for those to see how their job has an impact as well as how they can put their religious/social/moral beliefs in their day to day work.

J: Francesca, do you think that with upcoming dharmic lawyers, they face any barriers when trying to become professional lawyers?

F: Definitely, especially right now at the moment with everything being hit by COVID, the amount of availability when it comes to jobs is at rock bottom. There are a lot of people in our community that are lawyers, but won't help others get up that ladder, and that doesn't help. Sometimes when you go to a networking event, you don't see anyone like you, and it can be quite daunting. It's usually a lot of white males at these events, it can be quite hard trying to fit in.

S: There's also the idea of having this commonality, when you see someone who looks like you or has similar values to you, there's a level of understanding which is there without saying anything. You can have a conversation with them more easily with that commonality. There's a lot that isn't said vocally, but is said just through that.

J: And so all these problems/issues that you've both highlighted, were these things that you experienced and faced?

S: Yeah, from my end there were networking events where I was the only Asian person there. That's not a problem, but the issue is a lack of representation. You would think that the diversity we have in England and Wales would be represented more evenly. Our society or people from our cultural background, especially from older generations, don't help youngers get in. There's that view that 'oh, I've worked very hard to get to where I am', there's almost a threat level and its what we're trying to break down. It's whatever we can do to facilitate and make it easier and more comfortable to get into the profession is our vision.

J: And from a students perspective is there anything else you want to add Francesca?

F: I think Saagar covered that quite well. It's also when you look at it, a lot of people do law, especially from an Asian background. But then you see the heads of these firms and no one is Asian so you think 'where did all these Asian people go?'. Half my course at university were Asian, but where are all these people going? You don't see the representation happening as you get higher up [in your position]. It's something that needs to be changed.

J: Now let's move on to how you formed this association. I think some people would be interested in how you got it started. What were the first steps you took in putting it into practice?

F: Initially is was a very raw idea, and it took a countless amount of phone calls to work out what we wanted to do. It was an idea that we wanted to support students going into law right now, but also finding out what that support doesn't already exist. Then just trying to figure out what we actually stood for. The name of our association was very important to us. After it was doing our constitution and forming the team (we're still growing!). Initially growth was slow, but it was a matter of getting what was on our heads onto paper and seeing where we now want to take this.

S: It takes a while, any endeavours of this nature do take a certain amount of time. Francesca initially had the idea, she spoke to me, then we began to flesh it out together to work out what we actually wanted to do. You might have heard we are an organisation/association in our own right, and we are an affiliate of NHSF and HLA. NHSF originally created the HLA, and we almost bridge the gap between professionals and students, we sit somewhere in between. The name took a while, just trying to get a name to mean what you want it to mean took a while. The concept of bringing the logo to life took a while. Now we try to get content out, its been a slog but worth it so far!

J: I know you're still in early days with it, but at the beginning were you finding that you weren't gaining as much traction or views that you wanted, and how did you respond to that?

S: So we had a mix, we had a larger dharmic following that a legal following. That was there since inception, but not necessarily the legal sphere. But our target audience is in the middle of that Venn diagram, where we're looking for those who are dharmic and in the law profession. Our following isn't there as we want it yet, but it's getting there slowly and its good to have the backing of those just generally from the dharmic sphere.

F: Once the word gets out, we've had people message us. People are finding out now through our Instagram and Facebook. People are paying more attention now to our posts. We're getting messages and people asking for help. A steady pace is needed for our growth.

J: So I know I mentioned to you both before we started this discussion that one of the reasons I started writing was to open myself up to new opportunities and the chance the meet new people. Francesca you mentioned that people have started messaging your page, have you both found any new opportunities or networks that have arisen because you started this?

S: We have in some respects, we have individuals who have messaged us, not necessarily for advice (we're not a legal advisor!), we're a forum to bring people together. We've had people message us with queries, and a few messages even from people in India. Those people weren't part of our audience, but the more the merrier. Its not necessarily what we're set up for, but it is a dharmic organisation and its there to help. We've had a couple of new ventures which we can't disclose at this stage just yet (early days that's all!) but theres a couple in the pipeline. Hopefully that will come out soon so we can give you some more details then.

J: I know you work quite closely with NHSF and the HLA, is there a lot of crossover between those who are affiliated with their organisation and yours?

F: Definitely, there's a huge crossover. Having that dharmic connection helps. The people messaging us have been directed by HLA to our site. They have been a great help, both of them!

J: There may be others out there who also want to start something, not necessarily in law but it could be in anything. What would you say to them are the first few steps to bring their idea to life?

S: I think the main thing is what you've already said, and is of course also the title of this series that you're running, is passion. If you don't have passion in doing something, there's no point in doing it. In this day and age when we look to go into professions rather than jobs, you want to be doing something you like. Doing it with other people is also a lot easier, you have someone else to lean back on, so try and do it with someone. And have a think about what the wider picture looks like. Sometimes people have this tunnel vision and they see what the end goal looks like, but they don;t quite see how to reach there. There are lots of hurdles to pass, and you want to get over those in the early stages. Get it all set up properly. So to summarise: have a passion, find someone to help you along the way and be wary of the wider picture.

F: Saagar said it all. Go with it, it can be daunting but you never know until you speak to someone about it. Ask others what they think about it. Someone to bounce off also helps, you need someone there to push you to carry on. Starting off is probably the hardest, but it will fall into place after.

J: I think that's a great place to wrap up this discussion. Just one last thing, how can we find you on the web?

S: We're on Instagram & Facebook for now, but will have a LinkedIn and website up and running in the future. (Click on words for links to social media platforms).

J: Awesome, thanks so much for your insights!